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D-STAR VS APCO P-25 for Amateurs

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D-STAR VS APCO P-25 for Amateurs - 11/5/2005 10:31:12 AM

AL7OC

Posts: 71
Joined: 10/1/2005
Status: offline

A popular debate which seems to creep into most threads is whether amateurs should adopt the D-STAR digital standard, or the APCO P-25 standard for digital voice/data radios.

From an engineering perspective, are there any significant technical merits of the P25 standard which would justify the higher cost for this technology? Why would I want to buy an Icom F1721D P25 radio instead of my ID-800H?

I don't see amateur interoperability with public safety communications systems a big issue. Currently, you cannot legally use a radio certified for Part 97 amateur use in a Part 90 licensed land mobile system. Likewise, unless they are licensed amateurs, public safety officials cannot transmit messages on the amateur bands. I am a volunteer Search and Rescue K9 handler and have both amateur and Part 90 certified radios. I can't legally reprogram my ham radio for use outside the ham bands, and I can't justify the cost of getting a Part 90 certified radio for both Part 90 public safety and amateur work.

As I have stated before, I am an avid fan of recycling commercial radio equipment in the amateur service. The vintage Motorola and GE land mobile equipement that I have is rugged and performs very well on the air. The initial outlay for older surplus equipment was often less than $100, and for the cost of a few crystal pairs, you could be on the air.

Newer land mobile radios are a different matter to convert to amateur use. Just about all new radios require programming software and cables to re-channel. Unless you are a radio shop tech, most of this equipment is difficult or very expensive to come by. Also, the price of P25 surplus equipment is still high compared to new D-STAR equipment. Even if you get a great buy on a P25 radio, there is that problem of getting it programmed on the amateur bands. The commercial radios are not made to be user programmable so if you want to put in a new repeater pair, it means a trip to a radio shop or the purchase of the proprietary programming tools to do it yourself.

I think that the best bet for amateurs is to adopt and use the D-STAR standard for now. It is economically priced and based on my limited experience, it performs its basic functions well enough. There is always room for improvement, but that is the fun of new technology - taking part in its evolution.

Seriously - if you have compelling reasons for amateurs adopting P25, please share them with us. Your arguments should include the costs vs. benefits. I don't care who owns the P25 technology licenses - I want to know how much it is going to cost me to license the P25 technology and implement it.

Thanks in advance for your insights. We need differing opinions so that we can all make well informed decisions on where to go with digital radio technology.

_____________________________

Pierre Loncle
AL7OC
GEHT Field Engineer

Post #: 1

RE: D-STAR VS APCO P-25 for Amateurs - 11/5/2005 3:28:33 PM

VE7TKO

Posts: 157
Joined: 4/5/2005
From: Abbotsford, BC; Canada
Status: offline

Pierre Loncle - AL7OC

Thank you, for your article. You have said exactly what I have been trying to say for the last 3 months on qrz.com. To be legal, ham radio and public service radio has to be kept separate. Don’t try and say that to the hardcore APCO P-25 user. They will contradict everything you just said. Their personal use of a P-25 repeater on the amateur bands has put blinders on their eyes. They are unwilling to see the fact that using APCO P-25 limits the chances of the average ham, traveling through their area, from connecting with them. In effect, an APCO P-25 repeater is a repeater that is closed to the average ham outside of that repeater group.

D-STAR is a product that was designed with the amateur radio operator in mind. It can be controlled and programmed by any ham that is willing to learn. The first way that I can see D-STAR interface with APCO P-25 is at the IP level. This will probably happen some day because a capable ham will write the software. The only other way that I could see it happen is if a P-25 port were to be installed directly on the D-STAR controller. I don’t know if such an idea might be too costly to implement as a standard feature.

I think that the D-STAR open protocol has been handed to us on a silver platter. The Japanese taxpayer has carried the burden of the cost of its development. It is now up to the amateur with a vision of the future, to promote it.

< Message edited by VE7TKO -- 11/5/2005 3:46:27 PM >

_____________________________

Jan van Vugt - VE7TKO
Monitor 145.670 MHz D-STAR Calling Frequency. Tag "D*Call"
Jan the Bicycle Man
http://www.janthebicycleman.com
Abbotsford, B.C. Canada

(in reply to AL7OC)

Post #: 2

RE: D-STAR VS APCO P-25 for Amateurs - 11/5/2005 3:57:11 PM

K0NR

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/6/2005
From: Colorado
Status: offline

I am going to ignore the discussion of which standard is "better"...."better" seems to be in the eye of the beholder.

Historically, commercial gear has often been used on the vhf/uhf ham bands. In particular, commercial grade repeaters have always been a desirable way to go. On the other hand, commercial user equipment (mobile transceivers, handhelds,etc.) tends to have limits in terms of feature set for ham use. For example, hams tend to want frequency agility at the drop of a hat (VFO's, etc.), while land mobile users need a more channelized approach.

I'd argue that P-25 commercial gear will have limited appeal to the mainstream ham market. On the other hand, a radio manufacturer could chose to offer a P-25 radio with a feature set peaked for amateur radio. I don't think this has happened (yet) but the P-25 versus D-STAR debate would get really interesting if it did occur.

Clearly, ICOM has voted with its development $$ on D-STAR. Kenwood appears to be headed in the same direction based on the sightings in Japan. I am not sure about the other players.

(in reply to AL7OC)

Post #: 3

RE: D-STAR VS APCO P-25 for Amateurs - 11/7/2005 9:03:04 PM

KG4RRN

Posts: 57
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline

This just in from the newsroom---
There is a company in California which made a p-25 analog/digital Part 90 radio called Guardian.
It is a 5 watt p25 radio which also can transmit analog on ham frequncies.The company name is Datron World Communications.
This company also makes gear for the military and has its radios currently in use in IRAQ.
73,
Bob, KG4RRN
comments???

(in reply to AL7OC)

Post #: 4

RE: D-STAR VS APCO P-25 for Amateurs - 11/7/2005 9:35:22 PM

WA7LZO

Posts: 126
Joined: 3/3/2004
Status: offline

Yes, they make a very good P25 radio. Problem is, it is no less expensive than a Motorola XTS-5000 portable. About $5,800 well equipped (e.g., AES encryption, trunking, etc.).

(in reply to KG4RRN)

Post #: 5